Your post do indeed purport some degree of “authority” as the following assertions suggest:

Being such a new service, it (SEO) probably shouldn’t be too surprising that there is such ignorance from “clients” as regards payment and services provided when compared with what a reputable firm offering SEO can realistically offer, leaving plenty of room for the less desirables to ply their trade.

This (SEO) is how you get your site to be returned in search results, and basically involves changes to the HTML etc of the site to make it friendlier to the web crawlers used by search engines to index the internet.

However it’s obvious you’re clueless since SEO has been around for more than a decade.

So that is that — and now I will leave it, for you to argue with yourself, or have the last word, or whatever it is you wish to accomplish. Again, no one seems to know your purpose, but you.

John Barremore
Houston, TX

If you think discussions are “won” by yelling louder than the other guy, the slinging of insults, or claims of being “correct” due to greater experience, then I can only feel pity for anyone who has to deal with you on a day to day basis, including your customers.

And here we are, back on the merry go round…wheeeee!

I suggest we again, leave it here John, unless you have something substantive to add to the discussion.

What is your point; do you have a perspective on SEO standards, or are you campaigning for Ms Manners or Mr Blog Cop?

John Barremore
Houston, TX

As this all started due to your bad attitude, aggressive posture, condescension, lack of clarity, and loud boastful claims, I fail to see why my experience in this industry is of any relevance. I’ve not made much in the way of statements relating to SEO.

Do I need to be an industry expert before I can point out that you’re acting like a petulant child?
Or perhaps anything I say must be worthless because you’re more experienced?

If you have zero successful SEO campaigns nor any satisfied clients to your credit, if you have no abilities in the SEO industry whatsoever, how can you expect your analysis to be well received by anyone?

How do you justify your dialog to be constructive and valid if you have no professional hands-on experience? I mean hey, no offense pal, but to me you’re just blowing smoke. As the saying goes, either put up or shut up.

John Barremore
Houston, TX

Now, if you have nothing constructive to add, and are left with poor attempts at taunts and insults, I suggest we forego further heckling of each other on this blog post.

John Barremore
Houston, TX

John Barremore
Houston, TX

John: Marta, there’s plenty of wind left in my sail — though as Rian Douglas, the sh*t stirrer points out, the “debate” was going nowhere, especially since the concept of guaranteeing one’s work was an elusive notion.
I find it funny that you accuse me of stirring, when you’re the one being aggressive and insulting.
Pot, meet kettle

John: Regardless of our inability to control the search engines, if the application of our SEO fails to meet specific keyword goals for the client, there is no charge. We invoice only after positions have been achieved.

Great. I’ve never had a problem with your (final) position on guarantees.
I asked my initial question because you willingly associated your services with those who are less reputable, were unclear, when a simple clarification would have sufficed you were aggressive whilst playing the victim card, and you were insulting and condescending to Jason and myself.

In short, you made an ass of yourself

Allow me to reiterate…

Regardless of our inability to control the search engines, if the application of our SEO fails to meet specific keyword goals for the client, there is no charge. We invoice only after positions have been achieved.

If you’re looking for a common safeguard to protect the client and keep the SEO service straight and valuable, a performance warranty seems to be the best choice.

Cheers!

John Barremore
Houston, TX

The problem with the analogy is simply that there is a third party who is solely responsible for the rankings (though they tend to be impartial, and follow a set of rules) over which the Visible Dentist (or whoever else) has no control (apart from adhering to their set of rules and hoping for a favourable result).
It is almost like contracting an architect to design a building, and have them guarantee the work of the builder, even though they have no relationship with them. At least, that’s how I understand it (and it’s still a poor analogy)

Marta: Looks like your boat stirring was to no avail… perhaps the combatants are all debated out.
That would be “pot stirring”
And I’m not “debated out”, it’s just that the discussion was going around in circles

And everyone else who got involved in the discussion, I wanted to say a big thank you. There has been some great debate among commenters as well as some insightful observations as to how the article could be extended upon.

Tim, you have managed very eloquently to present points that attribute to each side of the coin in the standards argument. Of course in this complex issue there is no right or wrong. Certainly, I do not advocate a stranglehold on SEO creativity, but think that at the moment there are perhaps a tad many loopholes in the system that are being exploited.

Looks like your boat stirring was to no avail… perhaps the combatants are all debated out.

Just on your final thoughts:
“If most people would search on Google for SEO, where can searchers find quality information…
A standard definition of SEO would help the public understand what to expect from SEO…
SEO standards would assist in setting a minimum benchmark for SEO service delivery, which would ultimately increase the client value perception of these services…”
- People will search where they feel comfortable, given that google puts up ‘services’ very high in search results would suggest to me that people who are purcashing SEO services use google (among other things of course) to research options. Also it may lean weight that many people aren’t interested in the topic perhaps? Do they care about SEO… maybe not. This may lend weight to having one standard definition of SEO that describes the benefits more so than the how. Companies would probably differentiate themselves on both counts. Also do we have a standard definition (widely known by the public) on Marketing? Ultimately SEO is a category of Marketing really…
- SEO standards; not sure would be worth investment, who would police it? Sure companies could promise XYZ but results would speak for themselves, people looking to spend a significant investment on SEO wouldn’t rely on a ’5 star’ rating to meet a standard but more on customer feedback, referrals, advice from colleagues etc. If its a small investment (read small commitment from buyer) then does it really matter?

On flip side, I expect you could have same argument about social media and argue for standards as well; having a clear definition and a ‘standard’ would make it easier for people to understand the space.

Oh and just to stir the pot again on the Visible Dentist debate; hahah.

John: Would you buy a product, a TV, a car, or other tangible merchandise without assurance of getting your money’s worth? Do you seek to shop in stores that carry no guarantee of their wares?

Rian Douglas (cool name): Your analogy with consumer items is not a valid one, as those transactions seem to involve only interested parties. In SEO, Google et. al. couldn’t care less about the promises The Visible Dentist has made to its clients, nor whether you are able to deliver on them.

I disagree, the consumer in this case isn’t making a purchase through google of The Visible Dentist’s services, its with the visible dentist company itself. So the guarantee lies with them and by backing it up they can provide that guarantee.
If for example it was to purchase a TV through a retailer (like in a store); then in most cases the warranty (so won’t break down for 5 years or whatever) lies with the TV provider and not the shop (sure you could go into the shop to complain but in most cases they would refer onto provider). And so really if the TV is selling, the retailer couldn’t care less – especially if they aren’t involved in returns or warranty issues.
Now you might say, well their reputation is on the line with faulty products etc etc so they need to ensure high quality and that’s correct – but I would argue that’s the same for google; people would start to regard the search results less (although Google wouldn’t find out by people walking into a store.)

I liked your clear presentation of the topic. For me, it was an informative introduction to the SEO world.

All the best!

With my comment I meant that the SEO decisions and focus that you decide on directly effect the conversions and sales to your website.

So for example the strategy around what phrases you choose to optimise for and target and very important depending on what target market you are trying to get to visit your site.

Also the other SEO decision that directly effects the conversions and sales is what page you choose to optimise for what search term. Getting this right and choosing the correct landing page for maximum conversion of visitors also directly impacts conversion rate. For example targeting everything on the home page isn’t going to get as great a result as successfully optimising an inner page that gives the searcher exactly what they are looking for.

The initial point in my first point that I was trying to get across is that most SEO companies report on SERP but this in itself actually doesn’t mean anything. My point was if you focus on the actual conversions and sales that you are helping to deliver to a clients site via an increased amount of qualified traffic – which you can track and report on via an analytics program – than it’s much easier and a simple matter for your clients then to justify their spend with you – and easier for them to see the benefits and increase this amount.

The second point I was trying to make is that it’s a little ironic that many companies keep their clients in the dark by not providing them this data – which may mean less work and accountability but it also means much less growth within your existing client base and harder work to get new clients on board. After all word of mouth is effortless sales and if you educate your clients as to what benefits they are receiving you can justify a bigger spend.